[Skyediver]

I consider the LTA MZ3 an end game ~OTL. It pairs very well with VCs and thus I assume VOs as well.

Appreciate that. Will have to look into it, thx.

 

[EMINENT]

(and definitely don’t want to be like Sony and chop down numerous trees so they can find the 2 pieces of wood that sound right together like in their R10).

Lol. Is that really a thing in their marketing?

 

[Monsterzero]

They had to take down a hardwood tree so that the timber not "timbre" in this headphone could tune it. What a waste.
Imo headphones should be as transparent and neutral and have as low distortion as possible, and have no "timber tuning" applied.

I would much rather have seen the tree in all its glory in a forest than decorating and influencing the sound character of a headphone.
The USA once had a president who said" if you have seen one Redwood tree you have seen them all!".
I ddi not agree with him nor do I agree with a company that uses endangered hardwood in their headphones.
I will never buy a headphone from such a company.
Luckily the USA also has people like Dan Clark and I have every reason to suspect his most recent Stealth is a more transparent uncolored and better headphone in a real
HI FI context than some of the glossy, gross EYE CANDY headphones some rave about here.
Cheers CC

Wood has been used in music production and reproduction since, well....forever.

From drums, violins, guitars and bass, both acoustic as well electric, pianos, etc....Only horns are free of wood.

Speakers as well as subwoofers are made of wood. Amps, receivers and turntables of yester year all used wood in the production process.

I do not see any issue with using wood to create or recreate music, otherwise to avoid being hypocritical I'd have to stop listening to music completely.

 

[chesebert]

Lol. Is that really a thing in their marketing?

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I remember r10 wood pieces are sonically matched - the head of the r10 program was either a musician or audiophile.

 

[dougq]

I agree you don’t need to chop down a bunch of rare trees to make headphones (and definitely don’t want to be like Sony and chop down numerous trees so they can find the 2 pieces of wood that sound right together like in their R10). Notwithstanding my gripe about Stealth’s sonic performance and its head scratching voicing, I agree Stealth is very well built using modern materials.

While we are on the topic of what grinds my gear: I think high priced headphones waste way way way too much of their BOM budget on looks and feel and not nearly enough on the actual driver. I don’t know this for sure but I suspect none of the $2k+ headphones have drivers that are over $200 (probably not even that, with possible exception of Abyss because they CNC everything in house which may not be totally necessary given the global manufacturing base)

I disagree. High quality parts and materials that last are preferred over the cheap plastics that are used by the likes of hifiman and others. We’ve hit high peak in terms of resolution so most of what can and should be improved is build quality. Those are what justify the higher end headphones as they are usually only marginally better than the mid tier ones.

 

[chesebert]

I disagree. High quality parts and materials that last are preferred over the cheap plastics that are used by the likes of hifiman and others. We’ve hit high peak in terms of resolution so most of what can and should be improved is build quality. Those are what justify the higher end headphones as they are usually only marginally better than the mid tier ones.

I’m going to let RAAL, DCA and HFM folks chime in and give you their 2c

 

[brokemember]

They had to take down a hardwood tree so that the timber not "timbre" in this headphone could tune it. What a waste.
Imo headphones should be as transparent and neutral and have as low distortion as possible, and have no "timber tuning" applied.

I would much rather have seen the tree in all its glory in a forest than decorating and influencing the sound character of a headphone.
The USA once had a president who said" if you have seen one Redwood tree you have seen them all!".
I ddi not agree with him nor do I agree with a company that uses endangered hardwood in their headphones.
I will never buy a headphone from such a company.
Luckily the USA also has people like Dan Clark and I have every reason to suspect his most recent Stealth is a more transparent uncolored and better headphone in a real
HI FI context than some of the glossy, gross EYE CANDY headphones some rave about here.
Cheers CC

One could argue using manufactured parts results in destruction of more trees over time.

Using actual wood in instruments, headphones etc is actually one of the more sustainable industrial applications.

 

[adrianm]

Looking forward to trying out the Chord Dave tomorrow for a comparison.

Did you get to try it out?

 

[zach915m]

They had to take down a hardwood tree so that the timber not "timbre" in this headphone could tune it. What a waste.
Imo headphones should be as transparent and neutral and have as low distortion as possible, and have no "timber tuning" applied.

I would much rather have seen the tree in all its glory in a forest than decorating and influencing the sound character of a headphone.
The USA once had a president who said" if you have seen one Redwood tree you have seen them all!".
I ddi not agree with him nor do I agree with a company that uses endangered hardwood in their headphones.
I will never buy a headphone from such a company.
Luckily the USA also has people like Dan Clark and I have every reason to suspect his most recent Stealth is a more transparent uncolored and better headphone in a real
HI FI context than some of the glossy, gross EYE CANDY headphones some rave about here.
Cheers CC

Hey Christer - the truth is that small companies like ZMF really cherish wood, and the ongoing health of the population of many endangered trees is extremely important to us. A number of people have asked about this through the years and I've confirmed it with some of my friends I grew up with who became forestry officials and such and I've had many conversations with wood sellers who I've chosen carefully to work with based on their harvesting and careful purchasing of the wood. And the point is this; there is so much ruthless harvesting of trees around the world in places we don't have control of, that small businesses that pay a very high price for a VERY small QTY of the threatened species like us (to make headphones out of), help the perseverance of those trees, because that money in the end promotes a system that keeps the number, health and growth of those species protected. This funding comes from the people who use, love and want to see those trees continue to flourish. We as a species are growing at a rate that is depleting our resources on our planet, and we're at the point of no return where that money is needed to harvest and protect these species because of what's going on. It's about consumption in the right way, not about the lack there-of, and we follow that to a T.

If you look at the way some of the plastics, leathers and metals are produced, I don't think you'd be too excited about the effects on the environment, which most headphones use as well. I think we should all be excited that we're enthusiastic about a hobby where the objects are small, because the expensive large items many people buy do a lot more harm due to the amount of material they use.

 

[LoryWiv]

I didn’t like it as much as the Airmid or Glenn OTL that Zach also had on hand. Disappointed too, because I’m looking for an endgame OTL to match with my VO, and the other two aren’t easy to get, unfortunately.

Look into Feliks-Audio as well. I have been very happy with my Elise and may upgrade to Euforia, running to ZMF Auteur.

 

[msq123]

Look into Feliks-Audio as well. I have been very happy with my Elise and may upgrade to Euforia, running to ZMF Auteur.

Might be worth taking a look at Cayin HA-300b mk2. Headfonics did a very detailed review recently and also compared to Envy. Can’t go wrong with either, just a matter of preference.

 

[fzman]

I disagree. High quality parts and materials that last are preferred over the cheap plastics that are used by the likes of hifiman and others. We’ve hit high peak in terms of resolution so most of what can and should be improved is build quality. Those are what justify the higher end headphones as they are usually only marginally better than the mid tier ones.

some of this ais also aimed at Christer as well... I should have checked first. (my bad)

the phrase 'cheap plastic' is not redundant. I think they make crash helmets - football helmets, etc out of 'plastic'. they seem pretty strong. Carbon Firbe is a petrochemical product - quite hazardous and toxic as well, if not handled and machined propely, and embedded in resins of varius kinds - woinder what those resins are made from?

then there are the miner details (spelling intended) of metals being dug from the earth...

They had to take down a hardwood tree so that the timber not "timbre" in this headphone could tune it. What a waste.
Imo headphones should be as transparent and neutral and have as low distortion as possible, and have no "timber tuning" applied.

I would much rather have seen the tree in all its glory in a forest than decorating and influencing the sound character of a headphone.
The USA once had a president who said" if you have seen one Redwood tree you have seen them all!".
I ddi not agree with him nor do I agree with a company that uses endangered hardwood in their headphones.
I will never buy a headphone from such a company.
Luckily the USA also has people like Dan Clark and I have every reason to suspect his most recent Stealth is a more transparent uncolored and better headphone in a real
HI FI context than some of the glossy, gross EYE CANDY headphones some rave about here.
Cheers CC

wow- must be a Guiness Book record for the most questional assumptions concatenated in a single post (the post located in this thread on Head Fi, not another post, potnentially made of wood residing elsewhere (headphones, I think).

I don;t know you, I do know Zach and Bevin (and sometimes even spell her name correctly. I think you ought to count yourself lucky to share the p[lanet thay live on, and make a better place. They are two of the most wonderful, sincere, thoughtful, mindful and generous humans i know.

 

[Christer]

Hey Christer - the truth is that small companies like ZMF really cherish wood, and the ongoing health of the population of many endangered trees is extremely important to us. A number of people have asked about this through the years and I've confirmed it with some of my friends I grew up with who became forestry officials and such and I've had many conversations with wood sellers who I've chosen carefully to work with based on their harvesting and careful purchasing of the wood. And the point is this; there is so much ruthless harvesting of trees around the world in places we don't have control of, that small businesses that pay a very high price for a VERY small QTY of the threatened species like us (to make headphones out of), help the perseverance of those trees, because that money in the end promotes a system that keeps the number, health and growth of those species protected. This funding comes from the people who use, love and want to see those trees continue to flourish. We as a species are growing at a rate that is depleting our resources on our planet, and we're at the point of no return where that money is needed to harvest and protect these species because of what's going on. It's about consumption in the right way, not about the lack there-of, and we follow that to a T.

If you look at the way some of the plastics, leathers and metals are produced, I don't think you'd be too excited about the effects on the environment, which most headphones use as well. I think we should all be excited that we're enthusiastic about a hobby where the objects are small, because the expensive large items many people buy do a lot more harm due to the amount of material they use.

Thanks for your kind response,
but please permit me to ask, are you using ANY endangered hardwoods in your product line or not?
If not, well then of course , I rest I my case.
Not directed at you at all, but in response to those "sensitive toes" here who seem incapable of distinguishing between using "wood as such" and Endangered Hardwoods my case still stands, be it furniture or headphones.
As far as the ZMF big wood-cupped headphones are concerned I have only very briefly compared your then top model from a few years back, with more open less woody designs.
And to me who listens basically ONLY to unamplified acoustic instruments, many made from wood like, violins ,cellos ,string bass and woodwinds, quite good headphones, but I found the wood in the ZMF influencing and colouring the sound too much with my reference hi res masterfiles where I have direct references to how things sounded live in the hall during the recordings and with headphones without excessive wood used.
I am also fully aware that there is "no free lunch" so to say using many other materials like plastic or carbon fibre.
I have also seen way too many tropical beaches littered with plastic to make me avoid plastic packaging as much has possible.
Though the carbon fibre or plastic used in quality headphones is not likely to end up in the Seas. Cheap IEMS on economy flights and such, well that is of course something entirely different!
But new inventions are improving some materials from an environmental perspective. Most recently plastic eating bacteria are being tried out. Plastic waste at sea is a huge global environmental problem.
And when the tropical and temperate hardwood forests are gone the damage done is often irreversible.
Using synthetic materials does not directly involve cutting down and destroying tropical rainforests.
And although as someone correctly stated, carbon fibre is a Petrolium product it is at least less likely to tune a headphone one way or the other than wood is.
I love listening a well tuned "woody" Strad or Guarnieri violin, and the body the wood in my piano adds to the timbre of it. But a headphone imo again should only be as transparent and uncoloured and with as low distortion as technically possible to please me. And my quite big electrostatic speakers do not suffer from wood colouring more than in the bass which has a conventional driver in a wooden box.
We all have a delicate balance to thread in our overpopulated world and for me personally luckily neither violins nor cellos are made from Cocobolo or Ebenholz to mention just two tropical hardwoods . Cheers CC

Wood has been used in music production and reproduction since, well....forever.

From drums, violins, guitars and bass, both acoustic as well electric, pianos, etc....Only horns are free of wood.

Speakers as well as subwoofers are made of wood. Amps, receivers and turntables of yester year all used wood in the production process.

I do not see any issue with using wood to create or recreate music, otherwise to avoid being hypocritical I'd have to stop listening to music completely.

Hello, permit me to correct you a little bit fact-wise. Nothing major. And I certainly FULLY agree with you that wood both has been used and still is, and should be used to make many good sounding instruments . But there is still a BIG difference between a transducer like a headphone or speaker and an instrument. The transducer should be as uncoloured as possible to most accurately reproduce the actual timbral character of a wood instrument not coloured by wood imo.
And if you look a bit closer at the instruments of both a Classical Western Symphony Orchestra and lots of World Music instruments there are many more than
"only the horns"
NOT made out of wood.
"Wooden trumpets" or "wood cymbals" would be very rare, to give just two Western examples.
One of my favourite Non Western instruments the Asian Bamboo flute happens to be made NOT from actual wood, but from the fastest growing and tallest growing grass on Planet Earth, Bamboo! Bamboo is not wood as many wrongly assume.
But played by for example an Indian Master flutist like Hariprasad Chaurasia or more recently Shastro it can sound absolutely heavenly.

And the big Gongs and most other percussive instruments in say a Balinese Gamelan or traditional Chinese Orchestra are made of metal for very obvious reasons.
Although even within the percussion family there are also some notable exceptions. It tends to boil down to "timber or timbre" and how to apply and best deal with both in a HIFI context.
Cheers CC

 

[brokemember]

But a headphone imo again should only be as transparent and uncoloured and with as low distortion as technically possible to please me.

That's the thing... that is your preference. Not everyone wants the most neutral sounding headphones. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I think your hard stance on the usage of woods — especially exotic species — is not appreciating the fact most of the destruction is not caused by individuals or small companies like ZMF. Large swathes of forests are flattened simply to make space for other large scale manufacturing, with the trees being chopped down and simply discarded.

People like Zach at least appreciate the wood that they are working with and their work might actually bring more awareness to the beauty found around the planet.

 

[zach915m]

Luckily the USA also has people like Dan Clark and I have every reason to suspect his most recent Stealth is a more transparent uncolored and better headphone in a real
HI FI context than some of the glossy,

the wood in the ZMF influencing and colouring the sound too much with my reference hi res masterfiles where I have direct references to how things sounded live in the hall during the recordings and with headphones without excessive wood used.

I love listening a well tuned "woody" Strad or Guarnieri violin, and the body the wood in my piano adds to the timbre of it. But a headphone imo again should only be as transparent and uncoloured and with as low distortion as technically possible to please me. And my quite big electrostatic speakers do not suffer from wood colouring more than in the bass which has a conventional driver in a wooden box.

Dan Clark Audio tuned the Stealth to the Harman Target, which has been incorrectly deemed "neutral" by many, it's simply a a reference curve based on research that suits some listeners. Unfortunately audiophiles are much more finicky about sound, and one reference cannot be followed as bible. If you are a harman follower, that's awesome that you've found what suits you the best.

I do not follow the Harman target for our headphones because I don't personally find it to sound the most natural to the experiences I've had with music, there are parts of Harman that I love and parts that don't sound right to me which varies depending on the transducer, headphone design and sources I use. Tuning and measuring headphones has nothing to do with if wood is used or not (it influences a non-frequency/distortion related area and damping factor which I do think is important), you are simply stating a preference which is totally valid and you should definitely stick with it for yourself.

Other people have different preferences based on their experiences, and you should validate those as well because your argument for transparency is moot because it directly contradicts itself, and is based on personal preference, where there is no wrong.

@AxelCloris - it might be best to move this discussion to another thread in the Members lounge or such? I don't think it has much to do with CanJam.