[wwmhf]

I'm probably gonna invest in either the u12 or su-1. The optical out of my pc has serious clock issues no matter what DAC i pair it with. I get audible clicks and pops whilst my music plays using the optical out. Switched from the optical out of the motherboard to the optical out of my soundcard to my various Dacs and it fixed the issue. Should pair nicely with my original Benchmark DAC1.

U12 can help and SU-1 helps even more. However, SU-1 is much more expensive in the re-sale market.

 

[NTTY]

Hi ginetto61,

Indeed.

Clock signal contained in the SPDIF is not taken into consideration by the DAC. The SPDIF clock signal will only "piliot" the PLL at the entry of your DAC. The PLL will recreate a very low jitter digital signal to send to the chip(s) doing the Digital to Analogue conversion.

If there's jitter after the PLL, it is the jitter of the PLL itself (which is normally super low).

If the jitter of the SPDIF impacts the PLL, then it means the PLL is not adapted (bad design) or that the signal in the SPDIF is really too bad (up to the point that the PLL will not even lock onto it). In this latest case, you would need to check the source and/or link providing the SPIDF signal to the DAC and correct it.

Cheers

 

[ginetto61]

Hi ginetto61, Indeed. Clock signal contained in the SPDIF is not taken into consideration by the DAC. The SPDIF clock signal will only "piliot" the PLL at the entry of your DAC. The PLL will recreate a very low jitter digital signal to send to the chip(s) doing the Digital to Analogue conversion. If there's jitter after the PLL, it is the jitter of the PLL itself (which is normally super low). If the jitter of the SPDIF impacts the PLL, then it means the PLL is not adapted (bad design) or that the signal in the SPDIF is really too bad (up to the point that the PLL will not even lock onto it).
In this latest case, you would need to check the source and/or link providing the SPIDF signal to the DAC and correct it. Cheers

Hi ! thanks a lot for the kind and helpful explanation.
I can say that i have never had signal locking issue using the U12 with different dacs and i also have the feeling that the dac indeed provides some sort of internal reclocking. Nevertheless Apogee used to sell also a Master Precision Clock generating unit called Big Ben but it is a little too expensive for my use. So i have to rely on the dac's internal clock quality.
As i said previously the Gustard U12 is just working fine with AES cable and this Rosetta 200. I like the sound because has both space and detail. It fills the room quite nicely.
With a trick i understand that the U12 can work also with a USB signal only cable. I have to solder some pins in the relais i think. In this way it will be electrically isolated from the source, usually a noisy personal computer. But my long term project is to power it with an external good quality linear power supply. This should provide some further benefits. Hopefully.
I have to say that i am just looking for a nice sound.
I understand that for high end quality big money is needed.

 

[NTTY]

You're welcome

I also use(d) the U12 with satisfaction. Initially it helped me comparing two DACs. And finally it stayed in my system. I kind of felt it was improving things although I don't understand why. And I'm still wondering if it isn't a placebo effect. I'm too lazy to run extensive testing/research anyway, ans it is practical since I don't have to mess with the computer when I want to test a new DAC. Yes, I am that lazy

I've never had the opportunity to test a DAC with an external high-precision clock on my system, although I heard that kind of setup in couple on friends' systems. I didn't feel like I was really missing something of that on my system, so I never investigated further.

Cheers

 

[ginetto61]

You're welcome I also use(d) the U12 with satisfaction. Initially it helped me comparing two DACs. And finally it stayed in my system. I kind of felt it was improving things although I don't understand why.
And I'm still wondering if it isn't a placebo effect. I'm too lazy to run extensive testing/research anyway, ans it is practical since I don't have to mess with the computer when I want to test a new DAC. Yes, I am that lazy

Hi exactly my approach. Thank you very much for confirming the good quality of the unit.

I've never had the opportunity to test a DAC with an external high-precision clock on my system, although I heard that kind of setup in couple on friends' systems. I didn't feel like I was really missing something of that on my system, so I never investigated further.
Cheers

this is what i also read in some forum about the use of Big Ben. As long as the dac has a good clock the benefits can be not substantial.
Kind regards, gino

 

[NTTY]

I guess an external clock can be useful when you chain several Digital devices. So instead of hoping each clock generator in each device to create a decent clock, you put a significant amount of money into a unique one which will feed all other devices (say a transport, upsampler/decoder and DAC). It's also potentially useful with a single device, named the DAC, if you want to be 100% sure about clock quality.
To be honest, I'm not specialist enough to comment more than that, but my understanding is that medium value PLLs will generate super clean clock signals (jitter measured below pico-second). So that is not a big issue on my perspective.

Basically, what I heard at my friends' places does not make me want to spend that much money is this very specific area. I feel like I much prefer purchasing additional records for the same money

Ho, by the way, I forgot to mention one thing. In your DAC, after the receiver of SPDIF signal, there will most probably be an oversampling mechanism. This calculation has the nice side-effect to reduce jitter again... And if I remember correctly, a chip existed pushing this concept to the limit of huge oversampling calculation to render a digital signal almost free of jitter. I need to do some research.

What DAC do you use?

 

[ginetto61]

I guess an external clock can be useful when you chain several Digital devices. So instead of hoping each clock generator in each device to create a decent clock, you put a significant amount of money into a unique one which will feed all other devices (say a transport, upsampler/decoder and DAC). It's also potentially useful with a single device, named the DAC, if you want to be 100% sure about clock quality. To be honest, I'm not specialist enough to comment more than that, but my understanding is that medium value PLLs will generate super clean clock signals (jitter measured below pico-second). So that is not a big issue on my perspective.
Basically, what I heard at my friends' places does not make me want to spend that much money is this very specific area. I feel like I much prefer purchasing additional records for the same money Ho, by the way, I forgot to mention one thing. In your DAC, after the receiver of SPDIF signal, there will most probably be an oversampling mechanism. This calculation has the nice side-effect to reduce jitter again... And if I remember correctly, a chip existed pushing this concept to the limit of huge oversampling calculation to render a digital signal almost free of jitter. I need to do some research.

Thank you very much indeed for the very helpful advice. I think the same. My system is very average and a good clock generator must be quite expensive i guess (the Big Ben costs around 1500 euro ... more than the value of my entire system i am afraid).

What DAC do you use?

the one i used with the U12 is a pro unit from Apogee, the Rosetta 200 bought 2nd hand.
Then i also have a Gustard X20U (new) boxed and not even opened (i hope it is really in the box ...i have not checked. I bought it mainly for the great comments i read in a dedicated thread on this forum.)
Then i have an old Benchmark dac 1st edition, an Hegel HD10 and a cheap Cambridge audio Dacmagic.
I have also another usb to spdif converter ... the Melodious described here

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip.767935/

I have been frequently relocating lately so most of my things are packed away at present.
I just needed to get some opinions on the U12 quality. Now i feel more comfortable about it.
Kind regards, gino

 

[NTTY]

Interesting. I currently use the X20U, fed by the U12 (or not). I must say I am very happy with it. I was using a Rega DAC before (and still use it to connect other "standard" digital sources because the Gustard does not have enough entries). We used the Rega for quite a while. My wife and I tested several other DACs, without never liking them (and when we did, it was out of our budget).

Just like you, I purchased the X20 based on good reviews here. It eventually replaced the Rega, but I must say my oldest son (19 years old, much younger hears than mine ) still prefers the Rega sound because, and I quote him: "Although the Rega adds a kind of thin curtain on the sound, it is more charming especially on the vocals". Both the Rega and the X20 have a very comparable "representation" of the music. The X20 is "cleaner" on my perspective without being more aggressive, that's why I prefer it.

I had the great chance to compare their results to super high-end, super expensive and appraised other DACs, and the way both (Rega and Gustard) play music is perfectly in line (not to say close to) with those amazing gears I've listened to. So I am really happy with the music I hear. And although I understand the limitations of my system, I am happy to see I'm not that far, but for a fraction of money. Super value for money.

When you give a chance to your X20, let me know what you think about it. I'd be interested.

Cheers

 

[ginetto61]

Hi and thanks again for the very interesting reply. You say ...

Interesting. I currently use the X20U, fed by the U12 (or not). ... Cheers

do you mean that you have also tested the dac using directly the usb input ?
i am not so sure that mine has the usb board i should check but in case what difference in sound you get using the usb port on the X20U and instead the U12 ?
this could simplify the chain ... even if there could be a drivers issue.

Moreover I understand that some mods can elevate the X20U's performance sensibly ? i am referring to this http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Gustard_X20_Mods.html
In any case i am pretty sure on the basis of your words that the original would be just fine for me.
I am looking for soundstage and a powerful low end mostly.
I have already asked about the latter PRO version ... but i am not in a hurry and moreover i am in a difficult situation with my accomodation right now.
Thanks a lot again, gino

 

[NTTY]

Hi and thanks again for the very interesting reply. You say ...



do you mean that you have also tested the dac using directly the usb input ?
i am not so sure that mine has the usb board i should check but in case what difference in sound you get using the usb port on the X20U and instead the U12 ?
this could simplify the chain ... even if there could be a drivers issue.

Moreover I understand that some mods can elevate the X20U's performance sensibly ? i am referring to this http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Gustard_X20_Mods.html
In any case i am pretty sure on the basis of your words that the original would be just fine for me.
I am looking for soundstage and a powerful low end mostly.
I have already asked about the latter PRO version ... but i am not in a hurry and moreover i am in a difficult situation with my accomodation right now.
Thanks a lot again, gino

Hi Gino,

Yes I compared the two (USB entry from the X20U or feed from the U12 the the X20 using 2is or AES/EBU). The difference is so tiny on my system that I'm not even sure there's a difference (my system is likely to limit hearing the difference). That said, I preferred the result with the U12 in the path, so it stayed. And that might be a pure placebo effect, you know...

I am tempted to test the X22 using the new flaship ESS9038PRO. The X20Pro is essentially the same as the X20 with the ESS9028PRO instead of ESS9018 (both chips are compatible). Considering the already very good performance of the latter, I am not expecting much difference from the X20Pro.

Since the X22 has some architectural changes to adapt to the 9038, it could make an audible difference, not directly related to the intrinsic amazing performance of the chip, though (but because of other changes as well). That's why I'm tempted to give it a try. Short on money, though, so it will have to wait

In terms of mods, I am not at all into this. I tried once because I was convinced by a friend who's really good in electronics. He made me purchase an amplifier and told me he could make it a killing machine. I bought the thing, and out of the box, after decent break-in, it sounded crap. It then went to my friend for some "magic". Back to my house, plugged to the speakers, my wife immediately asked me to stop the torture... And you know, that was from a friend whom I could trust. He clearly has more that decent expertise. And on top of that, he didn't ask me for any money. On his perspective, the amplifier was sounding much better, and most of all was sounding right...

So, you never know what people listen to, where, how and on what system. You can do the test with a friend. Listen together to the same piece of music, on the same system, at the same time, and ask him what he thinks. You'll be surprised that he was not focusing on the same thing as you did. So even when listening to the same music, your brain focuses more on what you like or dislike and largely ignore the rest of the signal. This is why taking advice from friends or worse, people on forums, is really risky.

The only way is to get to know people: what they like to listen to and what they say they are focusing on. If it matches with your taste, then you can start comparing your feelings to those people. When it matches more than once, you can start getting some advice from the tests and results they publish. The only other way is to listen yourself to a gear before purchasing, which is rarely easy.

Cheers

 

[Serguey Terre]

Hello,
i from France, i just want to know why my breeze Duu8 bug at 48,96, 192 khz and not at 44, 88, 176 khz in ASIO (with any audio player and KS output foobar2k or Asio: XMOS). OS=Win10
( Driver: XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2013(v2.19.0) )
but i tried :
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2023(v3.34.0)
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-3033(v2.26.0)
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2023(v2.19.0)

there is 2 cristals in the breeze one for 44.1,88.2 etc.. and the other one for 48, 96 etc..
so it mean only one is drive from foobar.

with Direct sound ouput all bitrate works

 

[jgarshon]

Question for other u12 owners here. Can this unit pass an MQA encoded signal? Is it "bit perfect" capable and able to pass an MQA signal to a DAC like the MQA enabled Berkeley Audio units?

Thanks in advance!

 

[jgarshon]

Seems I figured this answer out myself! I had to enable the U12 as a device in Roon which then allowed me to select exclusive control and MQA rendering for the Berkeley DAC. Took me a bit to get there but it works wonderfully! This U12 is a true bargain!! Thumbs way up.

 

[allhifi]

I would love to hear this!

I realize this is 4+ years later, but a U-12 purchase (Spring/Smmer 2018) proved very impressive (i2S to X-20PRO); gains in every performance/SQ parameter imaginable.

However, the biggest thrill arrived when I substituted A 'Cinnamon' (HDMi) with AQ 'Coffee'; holograpahic/dimensional, clarity/definition, articulation, staging, 'tonal realism, balance, vocals 3-D jump factor, and on and on.
Months later it continues to thrill. And the signal (Renderer/Player) is a Pi3B running Rune Audio -not Roon-) !

As an experiment, purchased an Odroid C2+ and various USB cables direct to X-20's USB input; Shunyuka (Venom) USB, WW S7 (too colored), DH Labs 'USB' (bettered previous two), and most recently a 0.75m AQ 'Coffee', that's being traded/upgraded for a 1.5m 'Diamond', to arrive some time this week.

Bottom line, the Gustard U-12 ($150.), Raspberry Pi 3B ($100/w extra), AQ 'Carbon' USB ($150.?) and AQ 'Chocolate HDMi ($100.?) is a $500. knockout/superb Renderer/Music Player (with free Rune Audio interface).

For those wishing not to spend too much, look no further; astonishing SQ the likes I've never heard before -it fascinates/excites every single time.

(Oh, I a using a double (two) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power Supply's; one for amplification, the other for sources -a very positive contribution to SQ. I'd say a neccessisty for powering sources -particularly digital.)

pj

 

[allhifi]

Question for other u12 owners here. Can this unit pass an MQA encoded signal? Is it "bit perfect" capable and able to pass an MQA signal to a DAC like the MQA enabled Berkeley Audio units?

Thanks in advance!

Bit-Perfect should not be a concern if you wish to "pass" a 'Not-Bit-Perfect' Mostly Questionable Audio signal.

Reardless, the U-12 is a brilliant performer; USB/i2S

pj