[MLGrado]

Thank you for posting that, although way over my head it's valuable to those folks looking at it!

I am happy for the Xbass+ I perceive a difference between it and its predecessor "True Bass" it's a better cleaner sound to me!

Cheers!!

Looking forward to trying the new Xbass+.

 

[RBRIII]

@iFi audio I am following this thread as I am interested in hearing how others rate this new DAC by your company and while waiting for more listening impressions/reviews, I started digging a bit on the subject of power after reading this post by Thor. Since I am new to iFi equipment, I was wondering if you could weigh in and give some insight on if the DAC performs better to its rated specs when mating the DAC with something of the likes of the iFi iPowerX, for example, versus just using a decent USB-C cable for both power and audio. Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Thanks in advance!

 

[iFi audio]

@iFi audio I am following this thread as I am interested in hearing how others rate this new DAC by your company and while waiting for more listening impressions/reviews, I started digging a bit on the subject of power after reading this post by Thor. Since I am new to iFi equipment, I was wondering if you could weigh in and give some insight on if the DAC performs better to its rated specs when mating the DAC with something of the likes of the iFi iPowerX, for example, versus just using a decent USB-C cable for both power and audio. Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Thanks in advance!

Thanks for the question,

In most cases, any audio equipment can benefit from 'Clean" power sources (not just ours) Battery power would go a step beyond that as well.

The biggest determination you have to make will be by your own ears, my advice is always for one to power their equipment as cleanly as possible for best performance. One must also be careful to not "go off the deep end" so to speak with better cables and power supplies, I have always aired on the side of a measured response to these things. To me is it worth it to place a power supply 3 times the price of a unit into the chain? For me not really, but for those who can hear the subtle % differences that better power can bring I am sure it is.

As an example I was quite happy with my Zen DAC V1 and iPower 2, did I hear a difference tonally with the X? Yes I did and still own one, but again only your ears can tell you if that is worth it.

Cheers!!

 

[Assationater]

@iFi audio I am following this thread as I am interested in hearing how others rate this new DAC by your company and while waiting for more listening impressions/reviews, I started digging a bit on the subject of power after reading this post by Thor. Since I am new to iFi equipment, I was wondering if you could weigh in and give some insight on if the DAC performs better to its rated specs when mating the DAC with something of the likes of the iFi iPowerX, for example, versus just using a decent USB-C cable for both power and audio. Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Thanks in advance!

Fyi zen dac sig v2 is $290 on amazon.com. It comes stock with an ipower2, (ipower2 sounds better to me then ipowerX too) I personally think the zen dac sig v2 smokes the regular zen dac v2 with or without the ipower2, but it is indeed more expensive.

 

[MLGrado]

Arrived! Full review soon from EuphonicReview.

How soon? Well, first step is to give the electronics a chance to 'settle in'. Not to start an argument whether burn-in is really a thing or not, but I don't take chances lol.

Second is full listening sessions. No measurements yet to keep from any possible bias, consciously or not.

Third, full suite of measurements with E1DA ADC, APU and Scaler, all battery powered and galvanically isolated.

So it may take a minute or two but I am looking forward to getting started today!!!

 

[MLGrado]

Okay... just some early returns here.

I started listening with my Focal Clear MG Pro headphones. Yes, they sounded great and the V3 had no issues at all driving them. But something wasn't quite 'iFi' about the sound. Certainly it needs more run-in time, so I make NO definitive pronouncements about what that means.

Then it stuck me how incredibly amazing every iFi ZEN headphone amp I have ever tried absolutely LOVES Sennheiser 6xx headphones. In my case I have a pair of HD650. Yup, sure enough, there is that SYNERGY between them and the iFi that isn't supposed to happen so well at this price point. Certianly we have 'iFi' sound in spades here. Without the 'power match' feature and the volume just jacked up a bit, the sound gets kind of flat and 'wall of sound' not in a good way. But turn on 'Power Match', and wow. Instrument separation grows, soundstage expands, subtle details emerge. It just sounds RIGHT.


You are NOT supposed to be able to get a Digital to Analog Converter.... AND a freaking pretty decent headphone amp for this cheap!!! I don't know how iFi is cheating here, but once again, if someone comes to me with no more than 300 bucks to spend on both a DAC and Amp and they have a set of headphones I know that the iFi ZEN V3 will drive, its a no brainer. This is the one. Heck, if someone came to me with 1000 bucks to spend on a headphone rig, I am telling them to get a pair of Sennheiser HD6XX and the iFi ZEN V3. Period.

Does that mean that its the best DAC, the best amp, and the best headphones??? No thats not what it means. It is all about the synergy. And the synergy here is something special.

No this is NOT my review for Euphonic Review, but if it were, it says enough, I would say.


P.S. One more thing to add. I have not looked into what kind of filter iFi has defaulted to for PCM here; so I setup my iFi STREAM in NAA mode and ran HQPlayer with everything oversampled to DSD256. Now we have gone far beyond the typical expense and end-user for this product; however... it goes to another level. It certainly scales up. The DSD filter in the iFi products is a pure native DSD filter. And a very short one with excellent transient response at that. For instance, the Signalyst Pure DSD DSC2 DAC (which I am lucky enough to own) has a 33 level analog FIR filter for DSD digital to analog conversion. The DSD1793 chip in the iFi ZEN DAC is only an 9 level analog FIR filter. Which means it has quite a bit better transient response. There is a second pure analog RC filter post I-V conversion in the iFi to clean up the rest of the ultrasonic noise and I can tell you from my many measurements of iFi products, it does a great job. Many other true DSD DACs show a real dropoff in harmonic distortion at higher DSD rates. Not the iFi. iFi DACs are always steady and consistent when it comes to DSD performance.

 

[MLGrado]

There's plenty of desktop dacs/amps at around that price point. Do you mean the Zen stands out in terms of sound quality?

You might say that. The ZEN V3 doesn’t just stand out for features.

Sound quality is competitive or better than products costing twice as much. And that includes iFi’s own products such as the original Neo DAC/AMP. The Neo with Firmware upgrade had more features such as choice of standard and GTO filters, but having thoroughly reviewed the NEO and having now about 8 hours of ear time with the ZEN V3, iFi has a bit of an issue imo with the ‘entry level’ stuff not being so entry level, if you catch my drift.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

You might say that. The ZEN V3 doesn’t just stand out for features.

Sound quality is competitive or better than products costing twice as much. And that includes iFi’s own products such as the original Neo DAC/AMP. The Neo with Firmware upgrade had more features such as choice of standard and GTO filters, but having thoroughly reviewed the NEO and having now about 8 hours of ear time with the ZEN V3, iFi has a bit of an issue imo with the ‘entry level’ stuff not being so entry level, if you catch my drift.

That's good to know. My headphone rig comprises a Zen Stream (with IpowerX 12v) connected to the Zen Dac V2 (with IpowerX 5v) and the HD600 using a balanced cable and PowerMatch. I use Roon. It sounds amazing. I've bought the DAC and the HD600 for less than 500 USD on sale. So, it's really good value. Sometimes I wonder how much I'd have to spend to experience a real upgrade in SQ. Cheers

 

[MLGrado]

That's good to know. My headphone rig comprises a Zen Stream (with IpowerX 12v) connected to the Zen Dac V2 (with IpowerX 5v) and the HD600 using a balanced cable and PowerMatch. I use Roon. It sounds amazing. I've bought the DAC and the HD600 for less than 500 USD on sale. So, it's really good value. Sometimes I wonder how much I'd have to spend to experience a real upgrade in SQ. Cheers

You have what I consider to be the best synergy I have heard between products.

Likewise I have a Zen Stream with Zen DAC V2 and now V3 under test. I don’t think anyone has better sound for the money. The synergy is that good. And as good as the V2 is, the V3 has a better headphone amp, taking things up even another notch.

If I were forced to live on a desert island that had a solar power system, I could live happily, for the rest of my days with music streaming via iFi STREAM into a ZEN V3 DAC via Sennheiser 6xx headphones, ( mine just happen to be HD650)

 

[iFi audio]

Thanks to all for the positive comments!

We appreciate the support and words!

Cheers!!

 

[sunjam]

You might say that. The ZEN V3 doesn’t just stand out for features.

Sound quality is competitive or better than products costing twice as much. And that includes iFi’s own products such as the original Neo DAC/AMP. The Neo with Firmware upgrade had more features such as choice of standard and GTO filters, but having thoroughly reviewed the NEO and having now about 8 hours of ear time with the ZEN V3, iFi has a bit of an issue imo with the ‘entry level’ stuff not being so entry level, if you catch my drift.

@iFi audio My understanding is that iFi does provide different versions of firmware for Zen DAC so users can select different filter for the DAC based on what they want.

I just downloaded the latest firmware from the iFi website (for Zen DAC v2), looks like they have the three versions (7.50, 7.50b and 7.50c). Based on my search on the web, it looks that they are doing these:

1. Regular firmware (7.50)
2. Firmware without MQA (7.50b)
3. Firmware with MQA and GTO filers (7.50c)

Is it correct?

 

[iFi audio]

@iFi audio My understanding is that iFi does provide different versions of firmware for Zen DAC so users can select different filter for the DAC based on what they want.

I just downloaded the latest firmware from the iFi website (for Zen DAC v2), looks like they have the three versions (7.50, 7.50b and 7.50c). Based on my search on the web, it looks that they are doing these:

1. Regular firmware (7.50)
2. firmwre without MQA (7.50b)
3. fimware with MQA and GTO filers

Is it correct?

That seems accurate from my knowledge, I do not believe any new versions have been released for the ZD3 as of yet, but I will check this to be sure.

Cheers!!

 

[MLGrado]

That seems accurate from my knowledge, I do not believe any new versions have been released for the ZD3 as of yet, but I will check this to be sure.

Cheers!!

Good to know.

At the time of my review of the ZEN DAC V2 this was not yet the case although it was available on the original ZEN DAC ( option for GTO filter)

The default filter in the reviewed models I had was a standard linear phase FIR with very good stopband rejection ( over 80db if I recall)

I still of course have a ZEN V2 and I will be changing it to the GTO filter if this is the case.

Bit perfect or GTO are my go to options if available with iFI. But having a dedicated HQPlayer setup here, and the amazing ZEN Stream that can send via NAA to any DAC I have, the filter game really really goes to a new level. However, the GTO filter is quite special and is on par and competitive with anything on HQPlayer.

Yes I know this is overkill. No one is going to use a $1500 PC running a $400 piece of software to maximize the performance of a less than $300 DAC. I have a unique situation in that I have an ever growing lab for reviews, measurements and comparisons.

What it DOES show is just how superior the Pure DSD analog FIR path is in all 1793 chip based iFi products. It’s very short (8 sample delay line) and sounds stunning. Even at the ‘entry level’ part of the lineup.

 

[sunjam]

Good to know.

At the time of my review of the ZEN DAC V2 this was not yet the case although it was available on the original ZEN DAC ( option for GTO filter)

The default filter in the reviewed models I had was a standard linear phase FIR with very good stopband rejection ( over 80db if I recall)

I still of course have a ZEN V2 and I will be changing it to the GTO filter if this is the case.

Bit perfect or GTO are my go to options if available with iFI. But having a dedicated HQPlayer setup here, and the amazing ZEN Stream that can send via NAA to any DAC I have, the filter game really really goes to a new level. However, the GTO filter is quite special and is on par and competitive with anything on HQPlayer.

Yes I know this is overkill. No one is going to use a $1500 PC running a $400 piece of software to maximize the performance of a less than $300 DAC. I have a unique situation in that I have an ever growing lab for reviews, measurements and comparisons.

What it DOES show is just how superior the Pure DSD analog FIR path is in all 1793 chip based iFi products. It’s very short (8 sample delay line) and sounds stunning. Even at the ‘entry level’ part of the lineup.

I am actually using a similar setup (i7-13700 HX, 32G RAM, RTX 4050/6G) + ifi ZEN DAC v2 + HQPlayer.

The ZEN DAC is so good especially it supports DSD Direct. It works perfectly with HQPlayer and DSD upsampling. Together with the TI/BB sound, it is really "music to my ears".

Some DAC (e.g. E30 II) claims that they support DSD Direct but their actual implementation is questionable. In the following thread Best native DSD DACs for use with HQPlayer? - Audio Gear Talk / HQ Player - Roon Labs Community, the HQPlayer developer and some pro users checked and seemed some DACs' implementation of DSD Direct based on AKM chip are questionable. (The thread is really long have fun reading it if you want)

 

[MLGrado]

I am actually using a similar setup (i7-13700 HX, 32G RAM, RTX 4050/6G) + ifi ZEN DAC v2 + HQPlayer.

The ZEN DAC is so good especially it supports DSD Direct. It works perfectly with HQPlayer and DSD upsampling. Together with the TI/BB sound, it is really "music to my ears".

Some DAC (e.g. E30 II) claims that they support DSD Direct but their actual implementation is questionable. In the following thread Best native DSD DACs for use with HQPlayer? - Audio Gear Talk / HQ Player - Roon Labs Community, the HQPlayer developer and some pro users checked and seemed some DACs' implementation of DSD Direct based on AKM chip are questionable. (The thread is really long have fun reading it if you want)

That thread you linked gives me a headache. lol. It inspired me to start writing an easy, fairly concise summary of the 'pure DSD' Dacs, how they ALL work around Thermometer/unary coding/dynamic element matching on my blog at euphonicreview.com. This has just been an idea in my mind but looks like this post may be a start.

The Signalyst DSC is an excellent proof of concept of 'true' 'pure' 'native' 'insert adjective of choice here' DSD DAC, but it's the same technique used (of course with minor variations with different makers) by Burr-Brown, T-A, any AKM DAC that actually has the bypass option available as a choice.

ROHM (a new player on the hi-fi scene as best I can tell. Not new to the IC market. My SMSL D300 is powered by their top chip, and I love it.) They offer no choice how you convert DSD. If you put in PCM, it is converted just like PCM typically is in a Delta Sigma DAC. If you send DSD, the ONLY way it will process it is native DSD via its analog FIR filter. There is no possibility for any DSD DSP. (I love it lol. To be fair, when it comes the DSD conversion Burr-Brown/TI chips work in similar manner)

Holo Audio is essentially the same thing although they use marketing jargon and call their DSD conversion a 'ladder' DAC. In TRUTH, ALL DSD FIR DACs that use resistors have a so called 'ladder' of usually equal weight elements. What confuses/interests me about Holo is how they use a redundant 'ladder' for each filter. I have some educated guesses how that might work, and at the same time I have actually no idea! But I do know that depending on the version, its either an 8tap (9level) or a 16 tap (17 level) FIR moving average filter.

Denafrips uses marketing to muck things up too.... calling it a 6 bit DSD converter?? No its not a mulit-bit delta sigma converter. Its a PURE DSD Direct analog FIR filter with 32taps/33 levels. By MY math, it could technically convert, if you used parallel in parallel out registers just barely over 5 bits.. by 1 tiny level. I guess they like to round up... WAY up lol. Or maybe there is another explanation. I have asked many times to no avail. But as it actually is, its a 1-bit converter, with serial in parallel out shift registers just like the pure DSD DACS mentioned above.

And yes, there are others out there. All the DACs of the above types that I have had the change to evaluate, which is most, sound truly OUTSTANDING with HQPlayer. It's the best of both worlds. The simplest, cleanest Digital to Analog Conversion out there, with the best digital DSP you could have, IMO. This is especially true with the lesser expensive DACS. Realistically, no one in their right mind would have a PC over 1000 bucks, a nearly 400 dollar piece of software to maximize out a 250 dollar DAC lol. BUT, IF YOU DO HAPPEN TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO TRY IT, you would be amazed at the sound you would get. One would swear they were listening to a multi-thousand dollar DAC in a blind-test. And yeah, in a sense they would be lol. Diminishing returns would be found as you get better and better DAC's though. I have not tried it yet, but I don't expect HQPlayer running my iFi IDSD PRO at DSD512 or DSD1024 is going to sound that much better than the already outstanding DSP on FPGA custom made by iFi. Still, these kind of pure DSD DACs can be and are audibly some of the most impressive, especially at the budget level when given the source to shine.


As far as DSD DACS that don't belong with those above.


ESS--YES the actual DAC section is an unary coded 64 element trimmed resistor FIR filter per channel (what many still consider 1-bit conversion, because unary code can be seen as multiple 1-bit streams), but the hyperstream DSM works at 6 binary bits. Getting ahead of ourselves though. back to where things begin in the DAC, not end...

Way back Before all that, ALL DSD first goes to a specific DSP that converts DSD to a multi-bit intermediate via FIR filter.(* see ESS diagram attached)

However many bits comes out of the FIR filter, is multiplied by a 32 binary bit gain control. It would be easy to think if one doesn't use the volume control, the entire DSP of filter and gain control is bypassed. This is incorrect. The FIR filter is the first necessary step to go from a bitstream to something multi-bit. You can go all the way back to Sony's white papers on DSD-Wide, and see this is EXACTLY how they accomplish the same thing. Nothing new under the sun!

Of course the FIR filter will leave redundant samples as in ANY type of filter, although they do NOT remove the redundancies, keeping the sample rate at the same DSD rate that came in. Thats how DSD can go through a ASRC for jitter control as well. Oh, and before the ASRC, there is another more specific IIR filtering stage for noise control before the noise shaper.

Yes, filtering and 'redundancy' in samples happens in a Pure DSD DAC too, but at the DAC side it only happens ONCE (twice if you count the completely different analog I-V or RC filter that will follow). But it happens in the actual digital to analog conversion itself (the analog FIR output filter) and doesn't have the massive amounts of DSP and remodulations attached to it.

Any AKM NOT specifically in DSD DIRECT or BYPASS mode. See ESS above for how it works lol. In the most basic sense, that is. It has its own nuances and functions that lead to the same thing.

Chord... his FPGA DAC isn't Pure DSD in the sense we have defined already with the Signalyst DSC DAC as the example par excellence. Its more like the ESS types, or actually a lot like the PSAudio DirectStream, except the output stage of the PSAUDIO Direct Stream IS a true 128x DSD 1-bit modulator with analog filter.


And there are many others.. and I don't want to knock these things. I am just saying they are not pure native DSD conversion in its simplest form.

Some of them may have BETTER sounding results with their ingenious DSP. Like Mola-Mola which converts all to a PCM rate over 3 megahertz I think for processing, then the final DAC is a true 1 bit Pulse Width Modulator with noise shaping converted via an analog filter with further smoothing accomplished with its I-V converter. I would LOVE to hear one of these. The implementation sounds amazing.

Another GREAT one is DCS and their 'ring' DAC.

Its actually a lot like the ESS chip in how it works. ALL data PCM and DSD is processed by a 5 binary bit delta sigma modulator, that then is (still) on FPGA converted from binary to unary code, uses dynamic element matching to something like 48 elements? More elements than necessary, but all the better for linearity. (yeah, I forgot to mention that ESS in their output stage uses similar dynamic element matching and calls it a revolver DAC)


Now for those who will misunderstand me and get me wrong... I consider all these examples to be actual, real DSD DACS. With different ideas on how to best do conversion.


They are NOT in the category of what I would consider NON-DSD DACS that still accept DSD. Now THAT third if you will category of DSD DAC are non-native PERIOD.

DACS like this tend to be R2R DACs that do a full filtering and removal of all redundant samples, to something like 24bit 176.4khz for direct non-oversampling conversion with their R2R ladder. In other words decimating DACs.

(well, this is what most people think of when they hear decimation, although I could have used that word earlier in this post and still have been correct, but people would not have understood what I indeed meant and a fanboy argument would persist.)

What kind of DACs do this? I know there a few but none are coming immediately to mind that accept DSD, display DSD, yet convert immediately to a standard PCM rate and never look back.


Anyway... there is a start to the next part of my blog series... sorry I fried my brain a bit.. .which was my original complaint about this subject in the first place lol!!!